This week I’m back from a trip through Asia to talk with Dave Donars, chief of research at Cardwell Beach, about some big topics: international news, how travel changes our perspective on business models, and whether Facebook, as mighty as it is, has a brand at all. Take a listen to this first part of our conversation for more insights into the world’s most popular social network.
DAVE: Hi. Welcome to the Cardwell Beach podcast. My name is Dave Donars, I’m the chief of research at Cardwell Beach.
BRIAN: And my name is Brian Erickson, I’m the chief marketing officer at Cardwell Beach.
DAVE: I think a few of the issues that we’re going to discuss today are first and foremost, if we were to kind of start talking through things, one thing I want to discuss is the name of our podcast itself.
BRIAN: Yeah, that needs to happen.
DAVE: We might need to get a name. The second thing is I think given the tragedy of everything that happened in Paris, we’re going to try to walk through that minefield, because that’s what B2B podcasts should be doing. And the third point is to talk about some Silicon Valley branding, some naming, and what is the brand of Facebook? Of anything we talk about, I have very, very, very strong feelings about what Facebook’s brand is, as I’m sure almost all people do. But yeah.
BRIAN: And actually I just wanted to spend a little time talking about some of the observations I made over the last two weeks when I was in Asia. Just kind of some of the differences in the way the businesses work, some brand observations, and just some general travel observations that I had while abroad.
DAVE: Alright. So let’s begin. But before we actually start, I want to hold off and make a promise that for at least the next four episodes, this is a high order, I want to make a promise that we will not talk about Apple.
BRIAN: That’s a fair promise. We talk about Apple like every episode. Does that not count this episode? Because now you just have talked about Apple.
DAVE: No, no. It’s just the, well, I mean, fine. No, yes, it includes this episode.
DAVE: So the name of the podcast. Now that we’ve made the promise of what we shall not speak again, I think it needs a name. The name, “The Cardwell Beach Podcast” is nice, but I think over time we’ll probably get additional podcasts, right? Like this could be the flagship.
BRIAN: There’ll be offshoots, and yeah, I agree with that.
DAVE: And so if we’re going to do that, there’s kind of a Cardwell Beach network, right? So you can’t have a Cardwell Beach network with a Cardwell Beach podcast. So it would be like NBC having a show called NBC.
DAVE: So I think we need a name.
BRIAN: OK, what’s the name?
DAVE: I think I have maybe a name. But would you have any names?
BRIAN: I don’t have any names.
DAVE: You have no names?
BRIAN: No names.
DAVE: So the name of our podcast, it will now be, did everyone here that? It is now, because it has no name.
BRIAN: I like that.
DAVE: I don’t know. Let’s spitball. Should we do it like porn star rules? Like so it’s the name of your pet when you were a kid and the street you grew up on.
BRIAN: OK, I’m not sure if that works for podcasts.
DAVE: Eh? Well, let’s try it. What would yours be?
BRIAN: So my turtle, Noodle, who is currently 25 years old.
DAVE: Still alive?
BRIAN: I still have him, yeah, I still have him. So Noodle Mayda. That sounds terrible. Noodle Mayda podcast? [laughs] We can’t go with that.
DAVE: No, that’s great, that’s great. Let’s keep going. OK. So mine would be Gracie Monterey or Snakey El Dorado.
BRIAN: OK. I like Snakey El Dorado. Cardwell Beach Snakey El Dorado, OK?
DAVE: That’s a good name for a podcast. So now we’ve established the name of the podcast, and I was thinking about air quotes.
BRIAN: Air quotes?
BRIAN: OK. Cardwell Beach Air Quotes.
DAVE: You know how you put things in air quotes?
BRIAN: Yeah, I know, I got it.
DAVE: OK. So let’s tie this up. I was thinking like oh, what if we were so powerful that we owned a radio station or something like that? And I think something happened this year with we were podcasting and it might be with the Marc Maron thing, with the President. But recently I’ve been listening to, just had some jones for some unknown reason, to listen to these old, this old radio show that I listened to when I was a kid. And technology like Tune In and some other stuff, I Heart Radio, I can listen to those things that for years, since I moved to New York, just haven’t been able to listen to. What it made me acutely aware of was the fact that like terrestrial broadcast, where it is like over the air, for radio is still super local, super regional, you know? Like these guys have a lot of listeners and they, you know, they’ve been around for years, they’re local celebrities. But that’s just it. There’s that modifier before you’re saying celebrity, or that modifier if you’re saying anything. It is, it is hyper specific to that market. And I think what we’re doing, or what we’re riding the coattails of, is something that has fundamentally changed it where I would rather have a podcast than be on local radio somewhere. And I’m not attacking local radio. Like if anyone wants to give us a radio station, we will happily take it. I used to watch news radio. I’m sure there are some hijinks, some capers in there that would be a lot of fun. But you know, like the reality is I think that something has shifted where podcasting is more fundamentally meaningful and has a larger national reach than broadcast radio. And where local broadcast radio still has a lot of relevance is to produce things in a format that can be consumed on a national level. And so it’s just kind of like this idea of playing with air and that we’re talking, so air quotes.
BRIAN: Mm hm. That’s cool.
DAVE: We don’t have to stick with that, if you can think of other things.
BRIAN: That’s a good working name. It’s better than Snakey.
DAVE: Snakey El Dorado.
BRIAN: Snakey El Dorado, yeah. Air quotes. Let’s roll with it for now. OK. So moving on to the next topic, we are going to discuss some Silicon Valley brands, some tech branding, and especially Facebook. There are a lot of people on Facebook, right? A tremendous number of people use Facebook. So while Dave is looking up the number I want to just kind of share my perspective on Facebook. Facebook, to me, is almost like a utility company. It essentially runs the social plumbing of the internet. And like we were talking about, Mike and Matt were talking about last week’s, Instagram being the only social network that people actually still love, Dave and I were talking about the week before, there really is no Facebook brand. I mean, there’s a Facebook logo, but when you see the Facebook logo, I mean, do you feel like oh, I love Facebook? Or do you feel anything about Facebook? I kind of think they try to be as unobtrusive as possible with their quote-unquote brand, and I don’t think there’s really anybody who feels much of anything about Facebook the brand.
DAVE: It’s 1.55 billion monthly active users. Active users as a specific definition, so you’d have to log in to your account, I think within the last 30 days at least. I think it’s multiple times to be considered an active user. It used to be by total time spent, but they’ve moved away from that to do logins, and I believe somebody’s probably really upset because who knows if this is true. But I believe what it was, was they switched it over when mobile became much larger. And I’m nonsensically holding my phone in my hand, gesticulating while that’s happening. So sorry. But with the transition to mobile, what was more important was how often people were checking in. Because that dramatically increased. So Facebook kind of gamed their system to change that name. But though it was to their advantage, I also think it was a much more proper metric. But to go back to the Facebook thing, I think because your interaction with Facebook is basically your interaction with your friends or however you want to define whatever relationship you have with the people on Facebook, all you’re getting is their daily mumblings. And it’s not interior thought. These are published comments to a semi-public group of people. So there’s a lot of whitewashing that people do in that. And I think that’s most of your interaction with Facebook.
BRIAN: Yes. I think that’s a part of it. Part of this conversation I think is where’s the line between product and brands these days?
DAVE: That’s a good conversation to have.
BRIAN: That is a good conversation to have. And I think part of that also plays back to Facebook’s culture, which is a very product-centric culture. And they’ve done such a, I think they’ve done an excellent job. I mean, think of all the information that’s crammed into a Facebook newsfeed, of stripping away all the nonessential parts of, that could be part of Facebook. Over the years, all they’ve done is cut, right? As the network has grown, they’ve cut, cut, cut, cut and streamlined it so much that they may have stripped out Facebook’s personality itself. But let’s talk about the line between product and brand.
DAVE: So I think when you go down the line somewhere to more established companies, or what’s been longer a form established in the economy, and look at things like CPG, there’s a real differentiation between product and brand. You know, it could be a Proctor & Gamble thing, but it’s your toothbrush. That’s your toothbrush, you’re brushing your teeth with it, hopefully not doing a lot else with it. But like that’s your toothbrush. So I don’t, that’s a real distinct wall between product and brand. And you move through things, through like restaurant services, I think to even some small extent any time where there’s more customer service involved, that that’s starting to blur the lines a little bit more between product and brand. But then on the other side of this equation, you are, not the equation, but you get to the other side of this…
DAVE: Yeah, thanks. On the other end of the bell curve there is digital companies. And I want to parse between tech and digital, so something like Uber or Airbnb from just a purely digital company. Like Google, to me, is a purely digital operation. Anyone can buy stuff or maybe they do some grocery delivery and stuff like that, but like that is a digital company. Yahoo is, Facebook is, Instagram is. I think that at that point, on that side of the spectrum, there is what, five, ten percent difference between product and brand? It’s almost a full overlap of the Venn diagram. Like it’s nearly completely the same thing.
BRIAN: So then is that a new and emerging field of branding, where you’re, because you’re so used to in branding before this era having that differentiation between your toothbrush and the Proctor & Gamble assigned brand, that creating the brand is a distinct exercise? But when you’re creating the product, how are you baking the brand into it, is kind of a new exercise relatively speaking, over the last ten, fifteen years.
DAVE: I think it’s a good thing. I don’t know what you think. But I think it’s a good thing because it really ties together things that are important. Marketing should be a core competency of any substantial business model going forward. And it should be tethered in with the other elements. When it’s siloed outside of stuff, that’s where you start to get like Pets.com advertising and stuff like that. It’s just, it becomes less substantive. And it becomes less meaningful, and I also think it begins to become more egregious and more of like a lie that people are kind of pushing forward. So I think holding these two very closely together is very, very good for marketing. The question is, is it really good for branding, for like the product and tech side? Is it necessarily good for them to be so tied to the brand?
BRIAN: A couple different things. I want to go on a couple different tangents here and you can pick this up wherever you want. Social media is media, right?
DAVE: Yes, yes.
BRIAN: So media has existed in various forms for a long time, relatively speaking again. Let’s look at TV. Not the TV set, but TV channels. Those have brands.
DAVE: Yeah, definitely.
BRIAN: And how, I mean…
DAVE: How the hell does that work?
BRIAN: How does that work?
DAVE: Is there that same overlap?
DAVE: I mean, characters welcome. Is that USA? USA Network?
DAVE: I think that there is an element where that really does work, because it isn’t just totally random shows that are being put on. There’s always an element of curation, and you’re always thinking about day parting, the flow the show, and then when you’re talking about networks that are doing original programming, obviously there’s going to be some head of programming, somebody who’s involved in making the decision of what shows they go with. Part of that decision will always be, is this on brand? Is this what we want to be doing? And if you think about it, an FX show, those, if you like a show on FX, you’ll probably have some affinity of liking another show on FX. Whereas, you know, you probably have a strong disinclination to watch something on like the Hallmark Network. No knock on either one of those, it’s just that those are different audiences. And I think that that’s what you want to continue. You want to be serving a certain type of person. You have that, so what they’re doing is they have a certain person in mind, and then they cater to them. That’s a good idea. I like that. And I mean, I think that’s where a lot of UI and a lot of, a lot of UI is. I think there’s to a smaller extent some information architecture that’s built that way. But when product and brand are the same thing, I don’t see, I don’t know from their point of view like does it harm their ability to go out and do best in class UI? I can’t see a world where that’s true, but I mean…
BRIAN: What I’m hearing you say is that the curation, so in media, the curation aspect of the content is kind of what shapes the brand. But there’s almost, I mean, there’s algorithmic curation, right, going on with like a Facebook. But there’s no kind of real sense to it, right? I mean, it’s just essentially a random hodgepodge of all sorts of different people that you kind of know. Is that why the brand sucks? I mean, can we just get that out there? The brand sucks. Facebook’s brand sucks.
DAVE: OK. I’m going to weave a mouth tale with my mouth. When I was a kid, we moved from Milwaukee, from Milwaukee’s northwest side out to the suburbs, which was an extreme culture shock for me as a kid. But we had these very nice neighbors, and they were older than my parents. Their son was, you know, maybe ten years younger than my parents themselves. So they were approaching kind of retirement age people. And I remember this, because I had not grown up in a world where this occurred, so this was a big moment. Like they invited us over for dinner one night and we had like this formal dinner with them and stuff. And then afterwards, their names were Ken and Doreen, and they really were very delightful people. But they took us down to like the basement where Ken had like made this like man cave. It was just such an archetype of the suburban life that it blew my mind. And I was nine and I just had never experienced it, maybe ten, by never experienced anything like that. And you know, points out all the different things, like he had built the bar by his hands and all this stuff, and you know, showing us the different stuff. But why we went down to the basement was because they had a slide projector with the slides, and they showed their recent trip to, I think one of the national parks or something. I’m definitely showing my age with this, because I forget, I don’t even know the name of those things. But it was literally like side by side, like the thing that makes it.
BRIAN: Yeah, like an old school physical photo slide projector, right?
BRIAN: I guess that’s the name, right?
DAVE: Yeah, slide show. Like God, I am kicking myself that I cannot think of this word ball right now. But the, what I’m trying to get to with this story is that event could only at that time and place exist in Ken and Doreen’s basement. They couldn’t, they couldn’t broadcast it out to 25 people or something like that. And you know, while having a high amount of affection for Ken and Doreen, I will tell you that like their ability to like narrate the story in like a pithy or funny way was just not present. And then they just like took random photos and put them into slide format, and then like it was that slide’s turn, so instead of just like skipping that slide, which would be good for the narrative structure, they’d just be like oh, well, I guess the camera didn’t work so well here. Or it’s just like crap, horrible crap that you never, ever, ever want to hear, and that’s what Facebook is.
BRIAN: Yeah. And it’s that lack of curation. And who’s fault is that? Is that Facebook’s fault?
DAVE: No, it’s the people, OK, so half of people are more boring than the other half of people. Like no matter what we say, like about strength or looks or intelligence or something, half of people are always above average and half are always below average, which means we’re dealing with a lot of people on the planet who are not in the top ten percent of good storytellers. And that is not a good equation. Like just imagine if there was a football league or something like that. Like just imagine if there was just a basketball league that allowed anyone to play, and for some reason 1.5 billion people watched it all the time. That is a very low quality of basketball output, right? Like it would just be like, the teams are just unstructured and meaningless, and for some reason your grandma joins your team for seven minutes and then she’s out. Like just none of it makes sense. And that is what’s happening with Facebook.
BRIAN: So it is the curation aspect. I mean, it’s the fact that everybody’s on there and it’s not, you know, I mean I like never post anything on Facebook, like very, very rarely. If I do, it’s a repost from Instagram that I’ve just double shared to Facebook. And you know, I think that’s just because there are too many people on there that you can’t say things that you would say to any of those specific groups. You know, you can’t say what you were going to say to your family, oh, I love you and you’re the best and whatnot because it’s not just your family on there. And you can’t say, you know, offensive things to your friends because your family will get offended or whatever it is. And then none of those people end up getting any sort of relevant message, and it’s just kind of generic crap. Have you heard of the phrase, weird Facebook?
BRIAN: Google that real quick, would you?
DAVE: OK. So I’m going to Google “weird Facebook.” But I want to say that I don’t know, I don’t think it’s 100 percent curation. Because it’s, I don’t know if anybody could do a good job curating a meaningful experience out of Facebook, because everyone on Facebook is like, no one on Facebook is just like oh my God, I lost my job, I’ve been in this marriage for 26 years, I don’t know if it’s working. Like people go to these extremes, but I just don’t, like I want a real, like I want to go on Facebook and have like people’s real emotions. And I don’t mean that they have to be…
BRIAN: Yeah, there’s no real experience on Facebook.
DAVE: It’s so whitewashed. Oh my God, like why is every person in my life who I’ve randomly ever met who…
BRIAN: Because I just went through a period where I just, that was a thing.
DAVE: Right. But like I went to one high school where like that was where I went to elementary school with a bunch of kids and stuff like that. But I didn’t graduate from that high school. And then my high school class, amazingly, did not have a ten-year high school reunion, which is due to the fact that I believe our student government was set up, at Catholic Memorial, it was set up like the original U.S. Constitution’s, so it would just be two people running for president, and whoever came in second was like vice president for life. And I think what happened was we had a very diligent and great student who went on to do great things, who came in second to another really, he was a good guy, but she came in second. And I don’t think he knew until the end of the year that as class president of a graduating class, you are responsible for the reunions like in memoriam. So he resigned a few weeks before we graduated senior year, and Michelle was just like mm, fuck this, because she automatically became president. And she…
BRIAN: She didn’t care to…
DAVE: Yeah. She just felt kind of gypped. So we haven’t had any high school reunions. Sort of a long story to talk about the fact that I think it’s, there was a time in my life where I just wanted to know where people who I’d known when I was a little kid, what they were doing and stuff like that. And Facebook was…
BRIAN: It was just a novelty at that time. It’s like oh my God, this person.
DAVE: Yeah, my God, I think I forgot that like there used to not be a way to know what everyone on the planet was at least superficially doing.
DAVE: Yeah. Like are they married?
DAVE: And maybe that was the thing. But the thing I don’t want to know is like your thoughts about anything.
BRIAN: Yes. Because you couldn’t originally do that. It was just are they married and where do they live now, basically. And like let me write some stupid memory on their page. It wasn’t really even a wall initially.
DAVE: Yeah. But at the same time, it was super curated because, I mean it started with just Harvard, right? Then it went to just college.
BRIAN: Ivy League, then college.
DAVE: Ivy League, then college, right. So it was super curated. And now we’re talking about this whitewashed, completely uncurated thing, and with that overlap of product and brand being so strong, the content is the brand, right?
BRIAN: Now you have this whitewashed brand, and tying it back to a Dave Donarism, wait.
BRIAN: The first thing that brands do…
DAVE: Oh, is alienate people?
BRIAN: Yeah. And who is Facebook alienating?
DAVE: Literally everyone.
DAVE: But non-figuratively, everyone is griping about Facebook. If there was some type of…
BRIAN: But it is a utility, that’s my argument. Facebook has become a utility, because nobody wants it but everybody uses it.
DAVE: But Zuckerberg has always argued that it’s a social utility.
BRIAN: But he’s changed that. He was right. You know, that’s, I think the problem, Zuckerberg hasn’t really owned what he knows the vision of Facebook should be. He went with what investors wanted it to be. He had a plan laid out for it to be a social utility, for it to be the underpinning of the web, which in some ways it has paid off. But yeah.
DAVE: In a major way.
BRIAN: In major ways it has paid off. But he can’t brand the company as that for, I read something years ago about how they went that direction and investors didn’t like it and they took it in another direction.
DAVE: Is that really true?
BRIAN: Yes. Potentially.
DAVE: Wait. OK, so not in an overly accusatory way, which that probably came out. Please explain more about that.
BRIAN: I remember reading this years ago, and I don’t know, maybe some light Googling will find it out. But Facebook, in my opinion, should have really become, you know, jumped in two feet, a social utility that powered the whole net, rather than trying to be the network itself that drew people in. And for whatever reason, I believe it was derailed from that vision, which was Zuckerberg’s original vision several years into the company. And this is kind of what we ended up with, was something that’s neither here nor there.
DAVE: Facebook’s market cap is about $300 billion. It’s over $300 billion.
BRIAN: Yeah. That’s why I know better than Mark Zuckerberg what he should be doing.
DAVE: But I mean, I think largely that social utility is a very, very good idea. Because we can gripe about Facebook, but I sort of got if people griped about Google at this level, they would just switch. It’s not difficult to switch whatever you’re searching on. Like search engine is an instantaneous switch. So unless you are staying at the very top of the line and making an unprecedented amount of people very, very happy with your search results, search engines have no loyalty whatsoever. Maybe you’re used to doing something in one way, but that is not the same thing. Whereas social utility…
BRIAN: You build.
DAVE: Right. And it’s connected to all these things. It’s your registration and your access point to a lot of accounts. And that’s a very, very strange thing, is that it’s a passport that doesn’t go away. Because it doesn’t atrophy as quickly. You can’t just switch all this stuff off. I mean, it’s so difficult to switch all those accounts over and all that stuff. Like that’s a key, the lack of churn, the lack of attrition is a big deal.
BRIAN: It’s one of the most meaningful barriers to entry that a digital company could create, right?
DAVE: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that, I remember years ago I was thinking that Facebook would be this forever channel, that it would always exist. And recently just becoming less and less happy with Facebook, it’s just really thinking like gosh, somebody could really overthrow this, but the underpinning is very strong. And let’s talk about this as a utility, because Facebook bought the old Atlas ad server, which was at one point owned by Microsoft. To break it down, ad servers, at least on the digital end, are just humongous engines where you traffic advertising through. So if you’re working with a variety of publishers or systems, you can track it and place it through one system and make sure you’ve got your inventory loads and all those things taken care of. And it’s vastly more technical than that and I did a very bad job explaining it. But Facebook bought the Atlas ad server, and took it off line for a few years and rebuilt it so that they could potentially track on and off line behavior.
Which means that Facebook would be tracking you knowing, if you have the app on your phone, it knows where you are in a location. It can read a lot of purchase stuff, and really trying to build a world outside of Facebook that it could reference and then deploy for more and more targeted advertising outside of the Facebook world. So in addition to whatever money they’re making with Facebook, now they know a lot about you and then if you’ve gone through the Atlas ad server, you can do behavioral retargeting, you can get better consumer segmentation, you can get to one to one marketing through the Atlas ad server. That is all theoretical. I don’t actually think it will work out the way that they want to, but on that utility level, it is kind of nice to have ads that are more meaningful to you. Like nobody likes ads, I get it, by and large. But we all say that, but we also use search, and no one using search is just like oh my God, I can’t believe that there’s this ad for this exact thing that I was looking for at this moment in time. Like that’s not annoying.
BRIAN: Nobody likes bad ads.
DAVE: Nobody likes bad ads, but…
DAVE: Right, right, it’s all about relevancy. So if we’re on this relevancy kick, like Facebook should theoretically…
BRIAN: I almost feel like the ads are more relevant than the rest of the content recently on Facebook.
DAVE: Yeah, I actually kind of like some Facebook ads.
BRIAN: Maybe that’s just us, we’re weird. But no, I mean there’s actually been some like good deals for stuff.
DAVE: So good job, Facebook. But honestly, the essential problem is, gosh, there’s a bifurcation. There’s two things I want to talk about right now. One, let’s just put a pin in it, because I think it’s an important thing. Where we’re framing Facebook as this failure of content or a failure of curation, I think that there’s elements of that that are wrong, because I think Facebook’s UI is also really, really poor. And UI is a tremendously big part of that overall branding picture. The other side of this is that I had this feeling the other day where I woke up, going through my day, I had this feeling which it felt like a floor dropped out on me, because I realized like oh shit, email’s never, ever going to go away.
BRIAN: That’s terrible. That’s actually terrible.
DAVE: In terms of lead generation and stuff, it’s a great channel. But email sucks. Email sucks.
BRIAN: You know, I didn’t check email for two full weeks just now?
DAVE: There’s got to be like a happiness index about that.
BRIAN: Oh my God.
DAVE: Well, and I think we talked about this in a previous podcast, because I only had, you know, we said everything that we ever could say in our first podcast and now we just repeat it. So one of the things that I say all the time is the compounding value of relaxation, right? Where two minutes of relaxation is not twice as valuable as one minute of relaxation, it’s a hundred times more valuable. And so if you get two, if you get an hour of not checking your email versus a week of not checking your email, the things that unravel tension-wise in your brain are just incredible. But anyway, yeah, email is not going away. Because it is the real passport to the internet. There is no escaping that. You can’t register for a site, you can’t buy anything, you can’t have most experiences without an email address.
DAVE: So to basically navigate through, all of our phones are connected to receive email. Like just imagine a world where I don’t know why, but you could have just lived your whole life and you were like 28 years old, surviving in the world without an email address. I mean, it’s comical.
BRIAN: It’s laughable.
DAVE: Right? You could not do it. And it’s just not going to go away. It’s such a shitty, shitty, shitty thing, and it’s just not going to go away. Like now I understand why like horrible dictatorships do all these awful things or can get away with it or something, it’s just because…
BRIAN: Because of email?
DAVE: Well, the thing is just like email comes from this early time when that was the best solution available. Like that was the thing that worked.
DAVE: We don’t, we live in a world where we do not need that anymore, but because it is this underlying utility, we need it. And the depressing thing about email is it’s just like, ah shit, it’s going to be here forever. My whole life I’m going to have an email address. Like I’m going to die having recently checked my email. That is so depressing. But the other part of that is just that I think Facebook might be the same thing.
BRIAN: Yeah. No, I was just thinking that.
DAVE: Never, ever go away because of this registration fact. Because it is this underpinning, overwhelming utility for all of the internet. And I don’t know if you can escape that.
ANNOUNCER: Thanks for listening to the Cardwell Beach podcast. Join us next week as we continue this episode on Facebook as a utility, world events in the headlines, and how travel changes our perspectives on business. See you then.